tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post2846492238207288244..comments2023-03-30T05:27:28.532-07:00Comments on Flat Out: Worldcon on WheelsDavidGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-84227583301243779752014-08-31T08:36:19.691-07:002014-08-31T08:36:19.691-07:00Thanks, I have a very active online life, the blog...Thanks, I have a very active online life, the blogs here are only about half my output and I'm very active on twitter (@WTBDavidG for anyone who is interested), it's just the physical stuff that's problematic - our society isn't set up for someone who has major issues around both sitting and standing. I was considering that 45 minute registration queue last night and I'd probably have had to turn around and go home if I'd stood through it, so the chair made an immediate difference even if it wasn't remotely a perfect fit. Plotting to get an appropriate chair is in progress ;)DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-20988761784717262762014-08-30T12:57:39.307-07:002014-08-30T12:57:39.307-07:00"I haven't just given up on going to cons..."I haven't just given up on going to cons, I've given up on pretty much everything but a once a week meeting with friends for coffee."<br /><br />I hope you do follow up on the right kind of chair/assistance device for you. That strikes me as a not real great quality of life (as another bendy). I've been renting scooters at Worldcon for decades (they still work for me).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-73284149189504624972014-08-27T05:35:17.070-07:002014-08-27T05:35:17.070-07:00OMG, another bendy, we're everywhere!
I'v...OMG, another bendy, we're everywhere!<br /><br />I've been thinking more about the crowd thing and I think it may be something that needs explicit attention drawn to it in con newsletters. Worldcon had the highest ratio of mobility impaired people (both on wheels and ambulant) to non-mobility impaired I've seen outside of the Paralympics, which means the risk of walking into us if you don't look where you're going is much higher than people will be used to in their everyday lives. It's probably wise to draw their attention to that, for our safety, and their comfort, because I guarantee if I see someone about to walk into me, I'm going to try and make sure they hit the hardest, sharpest part of whichever mobility aid I happen to be using first ;)DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-24177784965800866042014-08-27T05:13:06.969-07:002014-08-27T05:13:06.969-07:00Wow! Out of all the replies here, yours are the on...Wow! Out of all the replies here, yours are the only ones that have made me genuinely angry.<br /><br />You say the ramp met the regs, if you look up to the start of the thread you'll see WonkoTheSane saying the ramp was two 5m flights. It's impossible to meet a 4ft (1200mm) rise in two flights and be compliant with Part M as the maximum flight rise under the regs is 500mm, and a 500mm rise should be matched with a 10m flight length. Now you yourself have suggested the ramp may not have had the required handrail on both sides. That's two potential deviations from Part M identified by people involved. Now either the information reported is wrong, or the ramp wasn't compliant. It's clear from what you said that some of the 'wheelchair users experienced in stage design' are not fully aware of Part M requirements because you yourself have said one of them suggested not having a rail to both sides, even though Part M explicitly requires it. As I pointed out this is likely due to wheelchair users, however experience, not appreciating the requirements of ambulant ramp users.<br /><br />Frankly, its not for you to say whether my 'proposals are appropriate' when I'm talking about my perception of my equality. I've pointed out that there are issues whenever disabled people are forced to use separate entrances and that it would have been better (and potentially cheaper!) if common access had been provided. That's hardly controversial, but apparently you think drawing attention to it is. I may not be a stage designer, but I am familiar with the basic requirements of Part M, and from what has been discussed here there were issues, again, it isn't unreasonable for me to comment on that.<br /><br />I'm disappointed you think that's being unreasonable, but I'm absolutely not going to apologise for thinking I should have the right to come in the same door as anyone else.DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-49180656107576920102014-08-26T19:06:22.740-07:002014-08-26T19:06:22.740-07:00David Weingart, as you know, I've rented a sco...David Weingart, as you know, I've rented a scooter at Worldcons for decades (recently back diagnosed as Ehlers-Danlos syndrome). Panel access for wheelies has always been an issue, as has fans not seeing people on scooters due to height. some Worldcons have done better with scooter spaces in panels and multiple disabilities such as fan needing a scooter/wheelchair space and needing to lipread, others not so much. When I was a Hugo acceptor in Denver, I was shown where the back ramp was if I should need to get to the stageAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-11617399342002615202014-08-26T10:52:03.127-07:002014-08-26T10:52:03.127-07:00I think the access needs were met - a ramp was pro...I think the access needs were met - a ramp was provided for people to get onto the stage. I didn't measure what came off the van myself, but I know the one in the plan was long enough to meet the regulations as this was specifically discussed, and any exceptions will have been signed off in the necessary manner to avoid risk to the con.<br /><br />I had a longer comment here, but it felt too much like a rant so instead I'll just say: I don't agree that your proposals are appropriate, and the plan was made by a group of people including wheelchair users experienced in stage design. If you feel that you have more experience in these matters then I suggest you join the team for future worldcons and try to design a better one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14472623428424996228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-7417747920653429972014-08-26T03:49:54.851-07:002014-08-26T03:49:54.851-07:00I want to make it absolutely clear I'm not cal...I want to make it absolutely clear I'm not calling for two ramps, I'm calling for a common entrance, and how that is achieved is a decision for the stage designers. The ideal is clearly a single paired ramp and stairs that lets everyone enter at the same place for both events. If you choose to go with separate entry points for different points, and one of them not accessible, then, whether you think about it or not, you're electing to say that treating disabled people as equal isn't important to that event - not really a message we want associated with the Hugos.<br /><br />Just because the ramp and stage was signed off as compliant by Excel doesn't mean it was - we've established it didn't meet the Part M requirements for ramp height and stage length, and you've cast doubt on whether it met the requirement for handrails at both sides, essentially we got away with it. That's blind luck, not good planning.<br /><br />"The calculation for conventions is always how many of other people's events must be cut entirely in order to make these things happen. There has to be a compromise between access and having a convention to access."<br /><br />And once again, I'm not saying spend more, I'm saying plan better. Having a single entry point onto the stage with paired ramp and stair access would have cost less than the arrangement with ramp + two sets of stairs that was actually used. Frankly disabled people are pretty sick of cost being used as an excuse not to meet our access needs (and this is society wide, not Con or fandom specific), when as often as not costs are minimal, or entirely avoidable, if you just plan for an equally accessible environment from the start. Being told our equality has to be bought at the cost of other people's enjoyment, guaranteed not to impress.DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-21878829315513999822014-08-26T00:58:37.105-07:002014-08-26T00:58:37.105-07:00If a choice has to be made between a ramp that'...If a choice has to be made between a ramp that's useful to everybody but makes one event complain about how it makes them feel, and a ramp that's only useful to the Hugos, I think the decision is always going to be for the first one. The only way I can see to avoid that would be to rebuild the staging for the Hugos, which means cutting other events in that room to make time to do the rebuild.<br /><br />All constructions had to be signed off as compliant with regulations by ExCel, in planning and on site. They wouldn't let the public enter the room until this was done.<br /><br />As far as cost goes, I'm just saying that I doubt we'd ever get budget for a second one; I don't know the exact numbers offhand, but I vaguely recall them being high enough that it would be a conversation about how many programme/event items would have to be cut to pay for it.<br /><br />The calculation for conventions is always how many of other people's events must be cut entirely in order to make these things happen. There has to be a compromise between access and having a convention to access.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14472623428424996228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-6668025269827437782014-08-25T23:26:29.782-07:002014-08-25T23:26:29.782-07:00On reflection I want to expand on the 'pricele...On reflection I want to expand on the 'priceless' point to make sure my meaning comes through clearly - I do recognise that Worldcon, and all cons, operate on a limited budget and through the goodwill of volunteers, I'm advocating 'spend smarter', not 'spend more'. DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-79601056912887086612014-08-25T11:21:20.841-07:002014-08-25T11:21:20.841-07:00The problem here is we have two different events w...The problem here is we have two different events with opposite requirements and values. Masquerade valuing a theatrical entrance, and the Hugo Award trying to follow other award ceremonies with a front-of-stage entrance. For those of us primarily interested in the Hugos (and that includes the press), the inevitable conclusion when we see a stairs-only entry being used is that the needs of disabled people are secondary. I take your point, but any arrangement which has separate entrances for able and disabled people - and the Hugos did, even if the Masquerade didn't - is less than optimal, and if disabled winners are seen to be relegated to coming in through the tradesman's entrance, in comparison to the foregrounding of able award winners, then I leave you to imagine how it feels. <br /><br />WRT the stage and ramp, the Building Regs are quite clear, ramps are not solely for wheelchair users (I definitely prefer ramps to stairs when using crutches) and handrails are required at both sides to provide for the needs of people who are unsteady on their feet and may need support to a specific side - frankly most wheelchair users won't appreciate that need, so you need to be sure the advice you're getting matches what the regs actually say. We've already identified issues with the height and length of ramp not matching the regs. It may seem picky, but these are potential mission critical risks, the Excel, council and insurers could all have been in a position to say 'this stage does not match the requirements of Part M of the Building Regs and is not to be used'.<br /><br />"it would be hard to justify the expense"<br /><br />Not leaving disabled people feeling like second class citizens - priceless...DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-44007235119634764802014-08-24T16:16:59.054-07:002014-08-24T16:16:59.054-07:00The confusion here appears to be coming from the &...The confusion here appears to be coming from the "tradesman's entrance" concept. The back-of-stage position is considered to be the more valuable one, as it permits a dramatic entrance from behind the curtain, which most performers will want. This is not possible with a front-of-stage ramp. In fact, the question was specifically raised during planning as to whether the ramp would be completely obscured by the curtain so that you would not see somebody's head slowly rising above the stage (and some redesigning was done to make this not happen).<br /><br />This was also specifically requested for the masquerade, as apparently it is common for people to have costumes which are so ungainly that they cannot climb the treads onto the stage. These people need to get behind the curtain to make their entrance.<br /><br />So in short: the backstage location is used to allow ramp users of all forms to be performers, and not merely members of the public. The front-of-stage treads are the second-class entrance, and putting the ramp in that position would have effectively prohibited wheelchair users from being performers.<br /><br />While it's technically possible to have two ramps, it was a monstrously huge ramp and it would be hard to justify the expense. It would also have come at the cost of a couple of rows of seating, and there was some concern that the seating capacity of the hall was already around half the expected number of attendees.<br /><br />As far as building regulations are concerned - yes, we had that monster of a stage (60ft x 90ft x 4ft!) specially built, and were required by ExCel to put in a ramp to those specifications. I'm not actually sure whether we had a handrail on both sides - I never got a look at the thing after it was built, but the strongly worded advice from one of our wheelchair users on the tech team was that two handrails on a ramp of that width (which is the widest you can buy) will have people constantly bashing their knuckles on the railings as there is only a couple cm of clearance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14472623428424996228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-43743200654240869472014-08-23T03:00:00.896-07:002014-08-23T03:00:00.896-07:00FWIW, Manchester tends to be better than London fo...FWIW, Manchester tends to be better than London for the most part. It's one of the reasons I moved here to begin with...Trialiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09768919571819548027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-90223511553251631292014-08-22T08:49:48.397-07:002014-08-22T08:49:48.397-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349011727942441150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-41462814944118935932014-08-22T07:16:49.857-07:002014-08-22T07:16:49.857-07:00Thanks! And the scary thing is that London is far ...Thanks! And the scary thing is that London is far better than most of the country....<br />DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-68479748131032892882014-08-22T05:55:51.196-07:002014-08-22T05:55:51.196-07:00Great post. "Difficult, no; dangerous, possib...Great post. "Difficult, no; dangerous, possibly; scary, Hell Yes!" You make informative, fun. Why I'm a fan of Whizz-Kidz. Getting the right chair doesn't just make a difference, it is all the difference. But so much still needs done. London travel still shocks me how inaccessible it is.the Amateur Book Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16235316930103813960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-73897667485476683762014-08-22T05:55:12.631-07:002014-08-22T05:55:12.631-07:00Agreed. Events and Programme were very much on boa...Agreed. Events and Programme were very much on board with Access support, by the way, but they and we needed to be more in touch before and during the con. That was partly a bandwidth issue - not enough people-hours to keep track of everything in detail. I hope future cons will have bigger teams.jonesnorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080423425362493404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-75542883352106447062014-08-22T05:28:06.854-07:002014-08-22T05:28:06.854-07:00Oh, indeed. In fact the head of Sasquan's Acce...Oh, indeed. In fact the head of Sasquan's Access worked with us and observed our successes and failures. In addition, we'll be making a list of Lessons Learned to send to him for easy reference.Xopher HalfTonguhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358314041293800496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-48283868123315224132014-08-22T04:37:19.524-07:002014-08-22T04:37:19.524-07:00Thanks for the apology, and I have no doubt whatso...Thanks for the apology, and I have no doubt whatsoever that it was unintentional. Hopefully we can incorporate the lessons learnt to ensure future cons don't face similar issues.DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-91931154550705560932014-08-22T03:55:10.167-07:002014-08-22T03:55:10.167-07:00A further point just occurred to me with respect t...A further point just occurred to me with respect to award ceremonies and access (and anything else using a stage). I've already mentioned that at least one of this year's Hugo nominees had mentioned on Social Media having mobility issues at a Con they were attending, so it clearly isn't simply a theoretical problem, but even without that we can never guarantee that a nominee (or a presenter, or the host) won't break their leg a week before the Con (or, god forbid, at the Con) and turn up using a wheelchair. If they can't then get on stage, or can only do it through a roundabout method, then that isn't going to make the Con look good, and it's going to ruin their memories of being honoured.<br /><br />I was going to say that needs to be in contingency planning, but it's basic access, so no, ramped access to the stage needs to be in your planning from the word go.DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-42640519386033312642014-08-22T03:54:53.438-07:002014-08-22T03:54:53.438-07:00I was the one who wrote the article that appeared ...I was the one who wrote the article that appeared in Pigeon Post #7. I intended to ask the experienced scooter users to show the less-experienced how it was done; the other reading didn't occur to me until much too late. But we all know what intentions are worth, so I unreservedly apologize for my ill-considered and hurtful words. (The Newsletter team published exactly what I wrote, so any blame should accrue to me, not them.)Xopher HalfTonguhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358314041293800496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-41843446472744217822014-08-22T03:15:39.848-07:002014-08-22T03:15:39.848-07:00Thanks for replying, and for taking the criticism ...Thanks for replying, and for taking the criticism so well. I'm very grateful for all the Access staff did do, and a lot of this is really just picky details, with a handful of more serious issues that could have spoiled people's cons - wheelchair/deaf seating in particular. The Auditorium issues point to Access being an all-areas issue, it isn't just a case of Access needing to keep in touch with Events, Events should have been actively communicating layout changes to you for comment/identification of access problems, so I don't lay that one at your feet.<br /><br />I think the particular problem with the 'set a good example' line was it implies people weren't, which is then read as them being irresponsible. And if people with mobility impairments were having as many difficulties with ambulant fans walking without looking as I was (and I know several other wheelies agreed with me) then it was never going to be read positively. It was the contrast that irritated! But thank you for acknowledging it was problematic, and I think the example should make sure nothing similar happens again. Maybe a policy of always running disability related announcements past someone with the appropriate area of disability might be a good idea?DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-39023314206140658362014-08-22T02:56:12.323-07:002014-08-22T02:56:12.323-07:00Paul: thanks, and 'legacy' was exactly the...Paul: thanks, and 'legacy' was exactly the point I was thinking when writing this. How do we make certain the lessons learnt aren't immediately forgotten - through writing them down and discussing them in blogs like this is a start.<br /><br />I hope I'll be at Dysprosium, but a few things to sort out first!DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-50560594580381793392014-08-22T02:51:45.645-07:002014-08-22T02:51:45.645-07:00Really good points there, Rose. Disabled people co...Really good points there, Rose. Disabled people come in all manner of individual variations, with all manner of individual access requirements. Postural support is one a lot of transport companies choose to ignore (I'm too cynical to believe 'forget), and one that doesn't just affect the most extensively disabled people like hoist users, but all manner of disabilities, right through to (semi-) ambulant bendies like me - I've had 45 minutes in an inappropriate seat put me in bed for a week.<br /><br />Very good points WRT obstructions of a theoretically accessible level space, the bin next to the main lifts at LonCon that meant they needed someone to press the call button for wheelies who couldn't reach it is a prime example. I found the entry/exit to the fan village mildly annoying every time I used it because that angled tape separating entry and exit meant I couldn't roll out in a straight line. Door width and double doors not being both opened I've already mentioned.<br /><br />And a ringing 'absolutely!' on the toilet stuff, I've lost count of the number of disabled loos that have had me looking around them shaking my head and saying 'what were they thinking!?!' - the Airblades provoked that at Excel - my knees and feet are stuck out in front of me, where are they supposed to go when I'm sticking my hands in the slot? The old-fashioned tin hand-dryers may not be as stylish, but they're a hell of a lot more accessible! DavidGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734028655032503805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-7113010996041982722014-08-21T17:52:03.141-07:002014-08-21T17:52:03.141-07:00I was co-Area Head for Access at LonCon 3. I'm...I was co-Area Head for Access at LonCon 3. I'm rather deaf myself, but otherwise able-bodied, except for a few age-related creaks. My co-Area Head uses a chair, and several members of our team have other Access issues. It's never enough, though - obviously we missed a lot of things even as we got other things right.<br /><br />Thank you for writing this post. I appreciate both the praise and the pans. Some of the latter we knew about (for instance, the podium changed location from our first discussions, and we failed to keep in communication with Events about it, so didn't discover this until Saturday afternoon, and our attempted fix was less than effective), while others we weren't aware of (for instance, the disabled toilet issues, or the locked doors, or the use of the word Mobie, evidently a North American term). And you're totally right about the wheelchair bays never being in the front. We screwed up. Future cons, Sasquan in particular, are already taking notice of these issues and the others you raised, and also of what was done well, like the registration assistance.<br /><br />As for the Pigeon Post article, which I approved for publication, I apologise particularly for that last line. It was intended to promote an example by veteran scooter users for newbie scooter users, of whom there were many at LonCon, but obviously wasn't always read that way. Given that differently abled people are too frequently asked to set a good example, I should have seen the probable reaction even if our intended meaning was read, and cut the line. I am deeply sorry.<br /><br />I'm glad you enjoyed the con, though, and delighted that the chair helped. I hope you're able to get a good one that works for you.jonesnorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080423425362493404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7950890435770299116.post-50867289735710561442014-08-21T17:31:44.565-07:002014-08-21T17:31:44.565-07:00Hello. We don't know each other, I'm sorry...Hello. We don't know each other, I'm sorry, but I'm a member of the committee for next year's Eastercon, Dysprosium, and I was also a member of the committee for Loncon 3. So I was very interested in this on both counts!<br /><br />I'm very glad that you enjoyed Loncon 3, and also pleased that the thought and work that had gone into access provision made a positive difference. That said, I'm sorry about the issues that you and others still encountered: things that were outside our control, things that we hadn't foreseen, and things that we just plain got wrong.<br /><br />As you say, Loncon 3 is over, but we always had in our mind our 'legacy' - especially to UK fandom and conventions. As much as any resources we leave behind, or the continuing benefits of the event's high profile, that legacy has to include lessons learnt.<br /><br />Dysprosium aims to welcome and be accessible to all fans. Accessibility is something that the committee had in mind when selecting a venue, and it's something we still have in mind in talking to the hotel and planning the event. The hotel has accessible accommodation, and the convention itself will take place entirely on the ground floor, all accessible, with a minimum of ramps. The venue is our starting point; the way that we use it, and make it possible for everyone to use it, comes next, and that's where the experience from Loncon 3 and other conventions, and feedback like yours here, will be enormously helpful. I hope you do come next Easter, and I hope that it will be as positive a time as Loncon 3. Good luck with finding a set of wheels!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10026174961438235682noreply@blogger.com